Let me confess up front: I’m a judge fan.
If you’re folowing the Alito hearings, by now you probably know almost exactly as much about Samuel Alito as those who’ve been ignoring the hearings entirely.
It’s not your fault. And if you’re a great judge of character, you might now “know his heart.” Sort of the way our President tends to know peoples’ hearts. Which tells you nothing about how he’ll behave as a justice.
Politicians can’t talk to judges. Their communication styles are too different. It amazes me that they can even breathe the same air.
It’s tricky. If you ask a politician how he feels about abortion, he might say, “It’s a tragedy. But issues of personal freedom are important, and the right to privacy as expressed in Roe v. Wade ought to be respected.” When a politician says this, he means, “I’m pro-choice. Abortion oughta be legal.”
So here comes the problem. If you ask a judge how he feels about abortion, he might say, “It’s a tragedy. But issues of personal freedom are important, and the right to privacy as expressed in Roe v. Wade ought to be respected.”
When a judge says this, he means something like, “It’s a tragedy. But issues of personal freedom are important, and the right to privacy as expressed in Roe v. Wade ought to be respected.”
Am I saying that judges are more honest than politicians? No, no, not at all - well, okay, of course I am. At least they’re more forthright. Politicians aren’t generally complex people - they’re simple people who use complex language. But at bottom, many politicians’ motives are somewhat cavemanesque (”Wanna kill taxes. Wanna kill bad guys. Wanna clear brush.”).
Judges operate differently. Most of them aren’t sure what politicians mean, for instance, by the term “activist judges” (for my judicial friends: It means, “guys who make decisions I disagree with”), or “legislating from the bench” (”making decisions I disagree with”). Politicians think that if a judge really wants to change something in our country, he overturns the relevant thingie and then comes up with a neat term paper that justifies what he was trying to do. The idea that a judge’s written decision actually reflects what a judge was really thinking about and how he arrived at his ruling… well, tell a politician that and he’ll hear something very different. He might hear, “Nice tie!” Or he might hear a small brass band playing “Camptown Races.” But that’s about it.
It’s possible that in Samuel Alito the conservative movement has found a reliably right-of-center ideologue who will rule again and again on the side of the guy who nominated him. It’s also possible that he’s a judicial conservative, and that he’ll be genuinely conservative about “legislating from the bench,” and that this will mean, for instance, protecting a decades-old and oft-reaffirmed judicial precedent like… Roe v. Wade.
The idea that at this point overturning Roe v. Wade (for example, always for example) would require judicial liberalism and activism isn’t one that makes a lot of sense to legislators or executives. But it’s true. Tell a politician this and he’ll hear something like, “We’re ordering from the Greek place for lunch. Do you want the souvlaki?”
So maybe Samuel Alito will be instrumental in overturning (oh, for instance, off the top of my head…) Roe v. Wade. And maybe he won’t. Either one is possible. The only thing I’m sure of is that the politicians and political strategists think they know. And they don’t. That’s somewhat comforting. And by that I mean, “That’s somewhat comforting.”





71 comments
norbizness
January 12, 2006 at 3:48 pm
1I’m guessing that one of those opposition Senators is hoping for a “you’re goddamned RIGHT I ordered the Code Red on reproductive rights!” or a Perry Mason “the witness forgets all about his 5th Amendment rights” moment.
ice weasel
January 12, 2006 at 4:27 pm
2This explains so much.
I got all confused yesterday when “Mrs. Alito” (who, according new to enws reports actually doesn’t answer to “Mrs. Alito” but Martha-Ann Bomgardner) stormed out of the conference rooms, reportedly, crying during question from (R) Senator Graham.
The confusion wasn’t settled when all the reports that I read said “Mrs. Alito” left the room because democrats had been mean to her husband.
I guess now I know how to interpret all that.
madbard
January 12, 2006 at 4:41 pm
3You know I’m am so sick of these activist legislatures judging from the hearing room. I mean like died and gave them that right?!?!
Furthermore, these ‘voters’ and their so-called rights. I mean if they were really important, they’d be judges right?
siobhan
January 12, 2006 at 4:41 pm
4From Sen. Tom Coburn R-OK (while discussing abortion in the context of fetal viability, etc.):
“And my hope is that you’ll be confirmed. I think you have great character and great integrity. And integrity, I think, is the number one issue, not your legal mind, your heart and your soul and how you view honesty and straightforwardness. And that the result will be that we’ll see some leadership to put science and fact and combine it with the law and restore the confidence in the Supreme Court in this country.”
Just curious - what are the odds that Sen. Coburn will be hoping for putting science and fact back into the court if ID cases are heard?
(ps - from the previous thread - thanks for the ID/Lobster links.)
tess
January 12, 2006 at 6:13 pm
5Oh, this all makes me twitchy, like when Roberts began hounding lawyers representing sides that he doesn’t agree with. And it really makes me twitchy (okay, downright spastic) to know that Coburn said that it was all about “integrity.” Holy shit, if it were really all about integrity, then why haven’t we gotten rid of Scalia? He’s got the brilliant mind (or mediocre one) to make any argument he wants in context of what he ultimately wants to legislate, but does he have any personal integrity? No! I wanna beat them all up with a giant dildo.
tess
January 12, 2006 at 6:13 pm
6Okay, I feel better after ranting for a bit.
waterfowler
January 12, 2006 at 7:19 pm
7Adam,
“protecting a decades-old and oft-reaffirmed judicial precedent”???
Slavery…
Segregation…
I don’t think you believe it was wrong they were overturned.
Again, even w/ Alito, aren’t us right wing-nuts still outnumbered 5-4?
Wait, did I just hear Ginsburg cough…?
SeattleDan
January 12, 2006 at 7:35 pm
8Slavery was outlawed by constitutional amendment,not by the Supreme Court. It took nearly sixty years for Plessy v.Ferguson to be overturned.
dee
January 12, 2006 at 7:45 pm
9I believe slavery was outlawed by the 14th Amendment, not a judicial decision. And Roe v. Wade is more akin to Brown v. Topeka rather than Plessy v. Ferguson, in that it extended the protection of the Constitution, rather than limiting it.
I find it interesting that Alito can declare with no hesitation his belief in “one man, one vote” even though there are cases concerning it that are pending before the court, but avoids the whole question of abortion on the grounds that he may have to decide a case at a later date and it wouldn’t be prudent to offer an opinion now.
I’m also amused by this whole Concerned Alumni of Princeton thing. Either he was well aware of their philosophy and chose to include them on his resume to send a message about his own beliefs, or he was totally clueless and just signed on with them thinking the magic words “Princeton Alumni” would open some doors.
Either way, it’s slimy.
Adam Felber
January 12, 2006 at 7:49 pm
10waterfowler -
You’re trying so hard to disagree with me I’m not sure you’re actually reading me. [sorry if that sounds harsh]
My point about “oft-reaffirmed” precedents is that the overturning therof is something that requires a somewhat “activist” judiciary. I wasn’t calling it good or bad. Just the kind of thing that involves a li’l Legislating From The Bench.
“Conservatism” from a judicial standpoint is closer to true conservatism (or the dictionary definition thereof) than the political brand, I think. In other words, being “cautious about change or innovation” is a large part of it. In other words, respectful of precedent.
Really, the whole point of this piece is that nobody knows exactly what kind of justice Alito is going to be, his personal views notwithstanding.
If you assume that everything I write is about hammering home the ol’ liberal “party line,” a lot of the time you’ll be arguing with points that aren’t there.
Hanna
January 12, 2006 at 8:15 pm
11I’d always figured he joined CAP to meet chicks. Isn’t that the most likely explanation?
Wait, hold on…
(looks up what CAP was)
Uh. Never mind.
Love,
Hanna
cooper
January 12, 2006 at 8:35 pm
12tess, now there’s a mental image that we’ll carry with us for a long, long time. Thanks.
I think fouler just likes piss in the soup. Hey I’ve got an idea. Whenever fouler begins to rail from right field, why don’t we answer him in French? Maintenant, cela devrait vraiment pisser il au loin, non ?
cooper
January 12, 2006 at 8:39 pm
13tess, now that I think of it, Clarence Thomas would probably pay good money for that.
waterfowler
January 12, 2006 at 8:47 pm
14If “legislatin’ from the Bench” is what it takes to undo 60 years of the left “legislatin’ from the Bench”, I can’t wait until the wingnuts start legislatin’ from the Bench. I’m just afraid, no, certain, that it ain’t going to happen. Just to hearten y’all and reinforce Adam’s point, it will take @ least 2 more justices, maybe 3, to overturn baby murder. And there doesn’t seem to be a wingnut ready to take over after W. to fill the next vacancies.
waterfowler
January 12, 2006 at 8:49 pm
15Sorry Coop,
I was railing instead of studying my French.
No piss for me, thanks.
cooper
January 12, 2006 at 9:10 pm
16l’OH, mais c’est votre potage préféré !
David
January 12, 2006 at 9:19 pm
17Sydney Blumenthal has weighed in over at Common Dreams with the most concise, compelling piece I’ve yet read for why Alito is such a bad choice for the Supreme Court.
Roe v. Wade could well be allowed to stand by a Court with Alito on it, especially if Kennedy shifts “to the left” because Alito winds up being as extreme a rightwinger as his paper trail suggests.
And if Alito offers arguments as absurd as some he has in the past, perhaps he will become a poster boy for what’s wrong with the Federalist Society’s notion of proper American jurisprudence.
And while it is true that I don’t know how Alito would rule on Roe v. Wade, although his mother is sure she does, I feel no comfort in that fact.
Nor do I think that he is by any stretch of the imagination a responsible choice by Bush/The Federalist Society for the Supreme Court of the United States, which I think is properly understood as a last resort for fundamental justice and an essential third co-equal branch of government with a very important obligation to play a key role in our system of checks and balances, including reining in the executive branch when it either exceeds it Constitutional authority or flatly deems itself exempt from any provisions of the law.
waterfowler
January 12, 2006 at 9:28 pm
18Cooper,
Peut-etre moi supposer votre prefere est pate?
cooper
January 12, 2006 at 9:40 pm
19Les gardes, l’arrêtent ! Le Français de rai de cowboy !
waterfowler
January 12, 2006 at 10:31 pm
20Merci vraiment, monsieur, and please stop it. I have to study for half an hour every time you do that.
ice weasel
January 12, 2006 at 11:02 pm
21Ultimately, fouler demostrates what separates the current crop of no principle neo-cons from traditional conservatives. Neo-cons, such as fouler win at any cost because it’s the victory and the ability to exert control that really the issue, not the system. It’s not about having any belief in the constitution, in fact, the constitution only stands in the way of the neo-cons being able to project their power and exert their authority.
It’s sad, pathetic mix of impotent men and unlimited authority utterly untempered by humility or respect.
Hey fouler, I give you credit, at least you had the balls to come out and say you didn’t care about principle, as long as you and your agenda “won”.
As for your predictions of judicial temperment, I think they have all the value of the commitments of your fave chief executive.
cooper
January 13, 2006 at 12:09 am
22Fouler, that’s the idea, ne comprenez-vous pas?
tess
January 13, 2006 at 12:36 am
23You know, 4 years of really shitty high school French and I can’t even keep up with the one-liners.
ice weasel
January 13, 2006 at 1:21 am
24One other thing about wishy-washy sammy.
It’s not even sammy’s positions, or apparent lack of them, that disturb me. It’s the clear fact, both historically and in this very hearing, that sammy, as waterfouler illustrated above, will say anything to get the job. It’s his excuse for things that don’t add up in his past and it’s what got him through this most recent hearing.
He has no balls. No principles. No stances on anything, well, anything that has even the least sense of controversy to it. And we know, we know that what he has said, once again, is meaningless. It’s blather designed to deflect, not inform.
sammy has some bad memory problems. He doesn’t remember joining CAP. He doesn’t remember why he ruled the way did. He has no idea how he interprets the constitution and he conveniently forgot he recused himself from ruling on issues relating to Vanguard.
Anyone with a memory this bad shouldn’t be on the SCOTUS, no matter what his personal or political beliefs are.
Siobhan
January 13, 2006 at 1:24 am
25Tess - freetranslation.com gives you a close enough approximation that you can fill in the gaps.
Weasel, I think you’re lumping Fouler with the wrong group. His stand is clear enough on abortion and a lot of other stuff. I don’t see eye-to-eye with him (though I always like people who buy duck stamps), but I think it comes from a sincerely held belief rather than a quest for power. I’d contrast that with the likes of DeLay, who did want power for the sake of what it could bring him, and he exploited the sincerely held beliefs of many people to get that power. (See Fig. 1: libertarians vs. anti-gambling moralists, working the Indian casino i$$ue. I’m sure they got their $80 million worth.) If DeLay or his ilk thought that there would be more money and power to be got by focussing on, I dunno, global warming, we’d have laws mandating 85 mpg vehicles by 2010.
I don’t imagine Fouler’s beliefs are going to be changed much by winning or losing his battles. The scary ones lose interest once they’ve won, because there’s always someone else they’re itching to step on.
David
January 13, 2006 at 1:37 am
26tess,
I’m with you, dammit. Great little series of exchanges between Cooper and Waterfouler, and until I can locate my French-English dictionary, I am condemned to just enjoying reading French (what a great language). Waterfowler’s stop it in English was good for a chuckle, at least.
David
January 13, 2006 at 1:41 am
27Waterfowler,
The Waterfouler was accidental, I swear, although I assume you do piss in the water when you’re duck hunting, but that doesn’t count as fouling the water. I did get to use the last pissoir in Paris when I was there in ‘78, which means I pissed in the Seine. Ah, memory lane…
Siobhan
January 13, 2006 at 1:51 am
28Oops. Confused my fowuls too.
Corwin Haught
January 13, 2006 at 3:29 am
29For me, the danger is not that he’ll repeal Roe v. Wade, it’s that Alito will support more limits to abortion (parental notification, waiting periods, etc.)
waterfowler
January 13, 2006 at 7:46 am
30Ice,
The constitution is exactly what we have been fighting FOR. Just because 9 black robes say they found a right to abortion in it, doesn’t mean I have to believe them. I can read as well as they can, and it ain’t there. Plus, we’ve used the only means available to try to correct them, the electoral process. After the elections of the last 26 years, we should already have a far right court, so y’all might take some comfort from that as I think Adam was pointing out. See you @ the polls.
tinman
January 13, 2006 at 8:48 am
31waterfowler,
I’m not sure who constitutes the “we” to which you refer, but allow me to suggest that We The Sheeple Of The United States generally think access to abortion is a good thing (though they usually want tighter restrictions, thanks largely to propaganda) and want our Supreme Court justices to uphold Roe.
So, to the extent that the “we” in “we’ve used… the electoral process” is The Sheeple, the Court should probably uphold Roe.
Sorry. I’ll go back to lurking now.
ice weasel
January 13, 2006 at 9:36 am
32Water,
No it isn’t. No one (at least no one in office) in the republican party has been fighting for the constitution. Is the “unitary executive theory” in the constitution? What happened to the fourth ammendment, did that suddenly leave the constitution?
I don’t seem to recall there being anything in that constitution you claim to be fighting “FOR” (your caps) that says we should run monumental debt, during wartime, while lowering taxes on a the smallest portion of the public (not coincidentally, the wealthiest). I don’t recall seeing anything in that consitution that said the copyright was a permanent and absolute privilege. Oh, and I don’t recall seeing anything in the constitution that “baby murder” was prohibited.
Water, the republicans are so far from the values they used to express that I’m frankly speechless anyone with a modicum of intellectual honesty (much less self-respect) stills claims to be both conservative and republican. Sure, rush limbaugh is a proud republican and claims to be a conservative but he’s a drug addict who is happily making millions shilling and whoring every rnc talking point. How much money did you collect from the rnc last year?
ice weasel
January 13, 2006 at 9:40 am
33Oh and Water, one more thing. Aren’t you embarrassed by alito’s bald faced lying during his confirmation? I mean, we both agree that’s what it takes to get someone with a fringe agenda on court. There’s no argument about that. But doesn’t his continuing mangling of the truth just irritate a little bit? And frankly, if he’s willing to whore the truth now, what makes you think he won’t whore for another pimp once on the court?
I know that one time, conservatives claimed that honesty was important. Sadly, that’s one of those devalued republican issues, getting elected/nominated/confirmed is much more important.
Mary
January 13, 2006 at 10:40 am
34Whoa! Talk about deja vu. Didn’t I just hear Newt talking about ethics? Is there an echo of that here?
Will
January 13, 2006 at 10:54 am
35What I’m more worried about than RoeVWade and the whole shouting match that masquerades as a debate on abortion in this country are these twin fears.
1) A conservative-dominated SCOTUS will not check a conservative-dominated Congress and POTUS, allowing a conservative-deluded majority to enforce its will on everyone regardless of the rights of minorities (racial, ethnic, gender, sexual, economic, or even intellectual).
2) A conservative-dominated SCOTUS will not check a conservative-dominated Congress and POTUS, but will check a liberal-dominated Congress and POTUS, helping to enforce the “permanent Republican majority” that seeks as its ultimate objective the removal of all other parties as possible significant factors in American political life; i.e. one-party rule, with the Republicans as that party, and the neo-cons running it. Ideological purity is not merely a concern of the extreme left, people.
Ann
January 13, 2006 at 11:24 am
36I too was stupefied at Alito’s lapses of memory. Although he makes much of his fair treatment of women and minorities now, he has never really seemed to distance himself from the positions of the CPA. Or maybe I just didn’t hear that portion of the proceedings. I’m in Copenhagen right now, so I’m not getting NPR.
I don’t really have anything to say–I just wanted to announce that I’m in Denmark. My office likes to send me to Scandinavia in the dead of winter. I don’t know why.
David
January 13, 2006 at 11:44 am
37Ann,
Dead of winter, height of summer… You’re in Denmark, and I’m jealous. Drink a Tuborg for me.
Waterfowler,
Be careful what you celebrate, and what you hope for. You will be no more exempt from a heavy-handed, highly intrusive sectarian federal government than will us secular liberals, and a one-party state essentially run by extremist ideologues is never, ever a good idea. The one advantage of all branches of the federal government being in the hands of the Democrats rather than the current incarnation of the Republicans is precisely what Will Rogers said: “I don’t belong to an organized party. I’m a Democrat.” Our civic strength is, at the moment, our political weakness, but I still find us superior, and I hope we never adopt a “unified message” or the credo that “staying on message” is better for the republic than rip-roaring debate both within and amongst the various parties.
Stephen
January 13, 2006 at 11:50 am
38If I could toss in a little conservatisim. As a parent of three daughters, I’m all for parental notification. I don’t know why abortion remains the first, last, and only issue when a new person is appointed to the Supreme Court. Surely we have other things we are conserned about. WARNING! PERSONAL OPINION TO FOLLOW:
PERSONALLY, I think abortion should be limited to cases of rape, incest, and health risks to the mother. Abortion as birth control has always struck me as a bad thing. Make the choice not to get pregnant if you don’t want a kid.
OK, I said it, bring on the flames!
bujeeeboo
January 13, 2006 at 12:18 pm
39There are other “lesser” cases that wittle away at abortion on demand that the court has heard and will hear again. Roe v. Wade is probably too much of a hot button case for anyone to overturn. Meanwhile, always keep an eye on what “the other hand” is doing. This is the Judicial Activism game plan.
jerry-the-conservatroll
January 13, 2006 at 4:22 pm
40AS far as Alito’s qualifications, if you didn’t see the panel of current and former circuit judges you missed the best arguement for why Alito was a good choice for a Republican president to nominate for the court. Dig up the transcripts. What annoyed me more than anythng about these hearings was if the Dems really wanted to hear answers to their concerns they should have stuck around for that panel. Only Feinstein had respect enough to hang around and hear what they had to say but Schumer, Kennedy, and Feingold were content to try to paint Alito as a racist mysoginist and walk away. They weren’t interested in hearing Judge Lewis or Judge Barry basically eviserate that charaterization.
Adam Felber
January 13, 2006 at 5:10 pm
41The constitution is exactly what we have been fighting FOR. Just because 9 black robes say they found a right to abortion in it, doesn’t mean I have to believe them. I can read as well as they can, and it ain’t there. Plus, we’ve used the only means available to try to correct them, the electoral process. After the elections of the last 26 years, we should already have a far right court, so y’all might take some comfort from that as I think Adam was pointing out. See you @ the polls.
I quoted this in full because I think it’s a fascinating point. Waterfowler -
Yeah, the reason you don’t have a “far-right court” after “26 years of elections” is exactly what I’m talking about.
I think what conservatives don’t realize is that honoring political conservatism and overturning Roe v. Wade are two goals that contradict each other to some degree.
You won’t hear “secular conservatives” or “neocons” admitting this a lot because it tugs away at the already uneasy alliance between the neocons and the religious right. Not acknowledging the problems of that alliance is one of the most important components OF that alliance.
As for your interpretation of Roe v. Wade, I think you’re oversimplifying. Roe v. Wade is pretty well-reasoned as long as you acknowledge that the Constitution has absolutely nothing to say about where life begins. In that sense, the Constitution DOES provide a “right to abortion” in the same manner that it provides a “right to birth control” and a “right to get a tattoo.”
Roe v. Wade didn’t “find a right to an abortion” in the Constitution so much as it found that Texas had no right to assume that Texas’ definition of where life begins should prevail. The actual majority opinion has a pretty interesting discussion of abortion and abortion law through the ages. [http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Roe/#rop]
To me, that’s one of the problems with the abortion debate. Each side refuses to acknowledge any validity whatsoever in the other’s viewpoint. To me, that’s wrongheaded: Where life actually begins IS an open question, and where you draw the line is, I think, ALWAYS going to be somewhat a matter of opinion. And that Roe v. Wade is a well-reasoned decision (even if you disagree with its morality, I think), is why even conservative judges , despite their personal moral and religious opinions, haven’t been in a rush to overturn it.
I’ve brought this up before, but I’ll say it again: Most pro-choice people, if pressed, will concede that a “I just changed my mind about a baby” 3rd trimester abortion is morally wrong. Most pro-lifers feel that while abortion is “murder,” for some reason the morning after pill isn’t.
It’s easier to shout “Babykiller!” or “It’s MY body!” And nobody ever holds a march where people carry around signs that say things like “THERE ARE DEFINITELY SOME GREY AREAS AND WE NEED TO BALANCE A RESPECT FOR LIFE WITH RESPECT FOR PERSONAL CHOICE GIVEN THE FACT THAT WE’LL NEVER FULLY RESOLVE THE CORE ISSUE FROM AN OBJECTIVE PERSPECTIVE!!”
Nope, you won’t see many marches like that. But that’s how most people feel.
Jim
January 13, 2006 at 5:22 pm
42Adam, can I ask your permission to put that statement on my placard when I attend the next pro-life/anti-abortion/gay pride/nwo protest/march?
Thanks dude, it’s pretty much a multi-use statement (now I just need to find a board constructed of environmentally friendly materials that is big enough to include the entire phrase).
siobhan
January 13, 2006 at 5:37 pm
43I think people on BOTH sides of the debate also feel “I wish there were fewer abortions”. If we could start from that common point, maybe we’d be on the way to making progress. The screaming starts when we start trying to figure out the means to that end. C’mon pro-lifers. If you’re going to legislate parental notification, legislate that teenagers must be told about sex, STDs and birth control.
Maximum Bob
January 13, 2006 at 6:01 pm
44Siobhan, as someone who supports a woman’s right to choose, I agree with you: many pro-choicers would like to see fewer abortions, and object to abortion being used as a casual birth-control measure. Remember Clinton’s mantra–legal, safe, rare? Still makes sense.
But when we start talking about ways to reduce abortion, like birth control, we hit a wall. Some (many? most?) of the people who call themselves pro-lifers also object to birth control, including the morning-after pill. The not-so-hidden agenda behind this is a desire to punish; if you have sex outside of marriage, you have to suffer the consequences, one of which may be raising a kid, whether you’re capable or not.
For those who think this punishment agenda is a figment of my imagination, take a look at the latest to-do over the discovery of an HPV virus vaccine. There are actually people out there who would rather be able to frighten their daughters away from sex with the threat of cervical cancer than allow a preventative to get to market.
ice weasel
January 13, 2006 at 6:59 pm
45Max Bob’s last paragraph is the key to understanding some of this debate. To wit; no one the pro-choice side of things is forcing people to get abortions. They merely want to be able to have them if they, the person who is pregnant, wants one. On the other side you have people who will disregard the very health of their own children to “make a point”. It goes hand in hand, the phrasing of “baby murder”, the tacit agreement that killing women’s health providers is “saving lives”.
Sorry, it’s just bizarre. I can understand, completely, being appaled by abortion and never wanted to have one. I cannot understand how that progresses to wanting to make sure no one else ever does. To me, that’s some serious self-righteousness.
Adam, one thing about “when does life begin”. I disagree with you sir. It’s not about that question at all. And I say that because the “pro-life” side of the argument hasn’t bothered to make a unified, coherent or even semi-scientific argument for one starting point one way or the other. I agree that we may never “know” but I think it’s an irrelevant question. We know, for instance, when life begins, when a viable baby can exist outside of a mother’s womb. We also know, and I think everyone acknowledges this, that depending on when in the pregnancy we’re talking about, the fetus may be closer to being viable than at other times. In other words, late term abortions are discouraged by everyone I know. I know that at times the shrillness of the debate really makes it seem as though both sides aren’t being open, honest and really sensible. But I think that judgment misses something.
cooper
January 13, 2006 at 8:11 pm
46Well, it looks like Sam Alito will be serving coffee and jelly doughnuts to the other Justices for the foreseeable future. No one put a stake through his heart during the hearings. In fact, he came across looking like the accountant-next-door, so I don’t see a filibuster happening. What say we elect more Democrats to Congress and one to the White House next opportunity we get, then bide our time.
tess
January 13, 2006 at 8:31 pm
47In that case, can we quickly arrange “accidents” for Roberts, Thomas, and Scalia?
David
January 13, 2006 at 11:51 pm
48I am not appalled by the medical procedure referred to as abortion, any more than I am appalled by any other comparable medical procedure. The need, either physical or psychological, for abortion should be reduced as much as is possible by education and the availability and effectiveness of birth control, including the “morning after” pill, precisely because abortion is a medical procedure.
I do not know the point at which a fetus has a brain fully enough developed to possess what we refer to as the human mind. Prior to that point, the fetus is a potential human being. I think the Supreme Court, in Roe v. Wade, chose the most reasonable standard, the viability of the fetus outside the mother’s womb, in dealing with the fact that abortion ever became prohibited. And even that standard must be waived when the health of the mother is at risk.
I’ll try to be brief. When I was a youngster in the 50s, one of my aunts was confronted with the likelihood that the birth of her last child, her sixth, would result in her death. My uncle was deeply troubled by the dilemma, but deferred to medical judgement and agreed to terminating the pregnancy very late term, rather than have his wife and the mother of the other five children die. It was my mother who gave him the assurance that he was making the right decision.
A lovely young lady at the church I attended, a Southern Baptist Church, married one of the nicest guys imaginable in that church. She was advised by her doctor that if she became pregnant, the pregnancy would very likely kill her. They talked with the minister, prayed, and decided God would bless her pregnancy. The pregnancy killed her.
This shouldn’t be a matter of two sides battling each other. This should be a private decision, with the benefit of the doubt going to the woman who is pregnant. Anything else is less humane, far more problematic, and an infringement by the state on a woman’s full enfranchisement as a free American. Roe v. Wade was one of the wisest decisions, and quite intelligently decided, regarding a very difficult question for our society as a whole. That the opponents of the expansion of the enfranchisement of women have fought it unrelentingly is unfortunate for those women who, for whatever reason, choose to end a pregnancy. That Roe v. Wade cannot be accepted as settled law is unfortunate, and that those people who do not believe in abortion cannot practice their beliefs and respect the beliefs of those who differ, but rather seek, in the manner of the Chinese government, to have the state take control of decisions regarding pregnancy, is sad.
The pro-life argument imposes a definition of human life that is derived from belief, the most extreme being that at the moment an egg is fertilized, it is a human being. That definition has no universality that makes it an appropriate standard for laws that will affect all citizens, not just those who choose not to have abortions.
I believe that any woman who makes the choice to have an abortion should be treated with dignity, not sympathy, and certainly not contempt. And since I am a male, I will not even pretend to understand the psychology of that decision, and at a very visceral level, I object to men who insist on imposing on women a ban on abortions.
Waterfowler,
I leave it to your imagination what would happen if you and I were standing beside my uncle or my aunt, both of whom are still alive, and you called either of them a baby killer.
nigel
January 14, 2006 at 1:03 am
49Waterfowler, I respect your opinion vis a vis abortion, but if yer so pro-life please leave the fucking ducks alone.
hedera
January 14, 2006 at 1:50 am
50Once again, Maximum Bob and I agree. The people who would rather risk their kids’ health and lives by not telling them the facts about human reproduction, scare the crap out of me.
The San Francisco Chronicle has published 2 very good articles recently on the subject of sex education. On Jan. 5, the Public Policy Institute of California released a survey which showed that 78% of Californians believe sex education programs should include instruction on how to get an use contraceptives, and should be paid for by the federal government (which, as we all know, only supports “abstinence only” programs).
And on yesterday’s op-ed, a professor of Biomedical Ethics at Stanford explained how the abstinence only sex education programs lie. Among other things, the programs tell teens that having an abortion will make you sterile, that half the gay male teenagers in the U.S. test positive for HIV, and that touching someone’s genitals can cause pregnancy. The people who support these programs want kids to be ignorant of how sex works, so they can punish them properly if they experiment and get pregnant. This isn’t even the nineteenth century: it’s the seventeenth.
The only sure thing about the abortion dispute is that there is no single, simple answer. I also like Adam’s proposed sign, but we’ll never see it.
And I hope that Sam Alito will turn out to be a genuine judicial conservative in the sense that he won’t overturn settled law (not just Roe V. Wade) for no better reason than that he disagrees with it; but I don’t think the odds are very good.
David
January 14, 2006 at 10:50 am
51hedera,
Thanks for the link to the excellent Katrina Karkazis article.
David
January 14, 2006 at 11:48 am
52Interesting article by Eleanor Clift re Alito, Roe v. Wade, and closet pro-choice Republicans.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10839026/site/newsweek/
Pete IVDL
January 14, 2006 at 5:38 pm
53It’s funny, I tried to watch the confirmation hearings on CSPAN, but there was nothing there. Well, there were all these old people talking, but nothing was actually being said. Hmmm. Maybe I need a between-the-lines broadband connection?
I shiver when I hear “pro-life” supporters try to justify why it’s OK in every way to murder grown humans who happen to be doctors, but it’s not really OK at all to save a frightened potential mother’s life. 6 of one, half-a-dozen of the other.
I also found it interesting (in this context) that pope Benny has just cancelled Limbo. What’s next, Hell™ is reserved just for doctors who terminate pregnancies? Talk about legislating from the bench - here’s another 60 year-old white virgin male starting to throw his weight around.
One final note… I was thinking about the old trick of negating labels to see if they fit the other side. I thought that “anti-choice” fits the erstwhile “pro-life” supporters/doctor murderers (in many ways pertinent to the current discussion), but “anti-life” just doesn’t fit many of the “pro-choice” supporters at all - if anything, this applies more to the more radical “pro-life” lobby.
Göttverdamme, Coop, stop with the French, or you’ll get a visit from Agent Repooc, and you don’t want that…
Tess, I’m with you. I had 5 years of schoolboy French, and when I went to France, I got so tongue-tied, I couldn’t ask a shopkeeper for a black pen. (Mind you, I did manage to buy cigarettes, but I was really sorry afterwards (Gauloises - shredded camel dung))
cooper
January 14, 2006 at 5:49 pm
54Pete, pope Benny is actually pontificating from the throne. No not that throne, the goldy one.
Oh yeah, Agent Repooc, good point. Okay, no more French.
Pete IVDL
January 14, 2006 at 6:29 pm
55Tres bon, mon ami. Merci. (Whew. Good thing I had 5 years of French…)
Murray
January 14, 2006 at 8:56 pm
56When DOES life start?
That is the question of the age. No one wants to end life, but when is it life?
The pope says life starts at the creation of sperm which is sacred and any wasted sperm is a sin. (Most see this as absurd). Fundamentalists say it begins at conception which they claim is the moment sperm hits egg. Medical science defines pregnancy as the implanting of a fertilized egg into the uterine wall. Some believe, (I for one) that life begins with brain waves, (we determine death as the sensation of brain waves). Some use the calendar, 3 mo., 6 mo, etc., some think that it is viability outside of the womb. Some think it’s birth, others like Dave think it’s “the point at which a fetus has a brain fully enough developed to possess what we refer to as the human mind”. As a teacher of all grades I can attest that this doesn’t happen until some time after High School. (Dave, there are plenty of junior high students that I wouldn’t have any qualms with a retroactive abortion performed).
For fundamentalists, who are the major force against abortions, their argument rests on God saying that “I knew you from your conception”. But what did the Hebrews at the time of Christ know of conception? Were they aware of sperm, egg, uterine implantation, cell division, blastoshpore formation, zygote, fetus, viability? The record indicates no. What they knew of conception was, sex, -magic happens, -baby. That “magic happens” part was conception. It’s a bit presumptuous to use OUR definition of conception to be the same as THEIR definition. So thinking that a day after pill is wrong because “conception has happened” doesn’t hold up. It doesn’t even meet the medical definition of pregnancy which requires the egg to implant into the uterine wall which happens several days later.
The Supreme Court during Roe v. Wade said that there was no consensus among, doctors, ministers, priests, ethicists, or anyone else, as to when life begins and so they couldn’t make a pronouncement. Therefore it was up to the individual to make that decision. A REAL conservative would also agree that it is up to the individual to make that choice. What right does big government have to tell us when life begins and how to deal with our lives? Instead their argument is that we don’t allow murder, so why should we allow murder of unborn children. They are making the assumption that everyone agrees (with them) as to when life begins. If this were so it would be easy.
And, once again, liberals are the ones who say, it is up to the individual to make up his/her mind, and conservatives to say, NO, YOU DO AS WE SAY (GOD TELLS YOU TO)!
David
January 15, 2006 at 1:13 pm
57Murray,
As a retired teacher, including four years teaching grades 9-11, as well as substituting in grades 5-8, I have to agree about the sometimes very, very late development (if at all) of what we refer to as the human mind.
Watched Gary Hart last night on C-Span. He made a pretty compelling case that under Bush, we are already into a theocracy, for all practical purposes. When you add in the imperial nature of this presidency, we are damned close to a Divine Right King in the White House. Thanks for nothing, Osama, you homicidally deranged fucking enabler. This is blowback of a horrendous sort.
cooper
January 15, 2006 at 2:28 pm
58Well said, David.
And in news of another sort: Just when you thought it was safe to celebrate Tom Delay’s fall from grace, Rep. John Shadegg rises from the crypt.
If you thought Newt Gingrich’s 1994 Contract on America died a welcome death, think again. Rep. John Shadegg, who has announced his candidacy to replace Tom DeLay as House Majority Leader, will bring it back from the grave.
You can read about Shadegg in today’s Washington Post.
“He’s Newt’s progeny,” said Marshall Wittmann, a Democratic Leadership Council aide who previously worked for Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.). “A hard-core, true-believing, hard-charging right-winger who believes everything Newt said about dismantling government and transforming the culture. In many ways, he is trying to revive the spirit of the revolution of ‘94.”
The Arizona Republic has called Shadegg a “firebrand” and “equal-opportunity iconoclast.” He argued in 2001 that Bush’s $1.6 trillion tax cut was not big enough.
Ann
January 16, 2006 at 5:41 am
59“When does life begin?” is NOT the question. We don’t have any trouble with ending life under all sorts of circumstances, including when someone rings your doorbell and it makes you nervous. “Murder” has a specific legal definition, and it’s not the same as “ending life.” Actually, it’s more like “ending life illegally.” So when abortion is legal, it can’t be murder.
Debating when life begins is a useless mental exercise and a distraction from the real issues. Life is a continuous stream, and our cells (including sperm and eggs) are part of that stream.
David
January 16, 2006 at 2:31 pm
60Good point, Ann.
Pete IVDL
January 16, 2006 at 8:06 pm
61Ann, that wasn’t a good point. It was a great point.
If abortion is legalised, (sorry, legalized), why are “pro-choice” demonstrators demonstrating? Are they just looking for a fight?
On the same point, why do “anti-choice” demonstrators demonstrate against a law? I don’t see anyone demonstrate with placards reading “Handicapped Parking Is Against God’s LAW!”, or “Adam and Eve, not Saddam the Thieve”.
I find it… perplexing… that there seems to be a common theme with fundamentalists at the moment. They’ll shout, threaten, and even kill you if you terminate an unwanted or unviable pregnancy, where no human being (by any real-world definition) is affected (apart from the mother, of course, which is a whole other situation), calling abortion ‘murder’, but they’ll defend to the utmost their government’s willingness to kill Iraqis, American soldiers, and the very occasional ‘insurgent’ on the basis of no evidence except gut feel. These ‘insurgents’ are ironically as fundamentalist as the people sending soldiers across the world to kill ‘em. Maybe we should just send fundamentalist soldiers over - that way, we solve two problems with one armed conflict!
hedera
January 17, 2006 at 1:11 am
62Not to mention killing Pakistani villagers who happen to live in the place the CIA thought Osama’s #2 was staying - oops, sorry, folks… Helluva good idea, Pete.
Is the CIA ever going to do anything about the quality of its information??
Ann
January 17, 2006 at 10:08 am
63Hah! good question, Hedera. If the CIA is so frequently wrong, why does the administration keep listening to them?
If the tests your doctor performs were wrong that often, would you REALLY go ahead with the surgery? Wouldn’t you want something like, oh, I don’t know, maybe a SECOND OPINION?
ice weasel
January 17, 2006 at 10:34 am
64You just know that somewhere in dick cheney’s office is a dartboard with a map of the middle east on it.
hedera
January 18, 2006 at 2:00 am
65Ann, the really scary thing about your analogy of doctors who perform flaky tests is that something similar came unglued a year or so ago in Redding, California (of all the places you never expect anything to happen): a couple of doctors working for an HMO whose name I forget were effectively running a surgery mill, and doing major operations on people who, well, weren’t ill.
They were busted when they told someone he had a bad ticker and needed a triple bypass. He’d scheduled a vacation to visit a friend and the friend either knew a doctor or was a doctor, and had him looked over, and the second opinion said, there’s nothing wrong with your heart… I believe the 2 surgeons are no longer practicing but the HMO, amazingly, is still in business. If you Google “surgery” and “Redding”, you’ll probably find it.
It made me a little nervous, but my doctors have never diagnosed me for anything that I didn’t have believable symptoms on…
Adam Felber
January 18, 2006 at 8:03 pm
66I have to dissent from Ann’s point, just a tad.
“When does life begin?” is by necessity the question here. In that if we allow it to be answered firmly and legally by the fundamentalists, that will be the end of legal abortion of almost any kind. Game over.
War and “justifiable homicide” and “self-defense” are neat comparisons, but what they all have in common is (perceived) self defense or national defense. So if we go down that path, you might conceivably keep abortion legal when the life of the mother is in danger, but that’s it.
So even though I appreciae your point, Ann, I’m unwilling to give that piece of ground to the fundamentalists. If we abandon the question of where life begins to them, they’re going to win. Already, with things like “Laci and Conner’s Law,” the ground is starting to shake in an ominous way.
David
January 19, 2006 at 12:14 am
67When is the living organism a human being with all the rights a separate life enjoys is the way I would phrase it. Birth used to be the criterion. Hence you start at zero at birth, not at conception. The Japanese, of course, credit you with one year for the period of gestation.
I agree that we cannot cede to the fundamentalists the authority to define for our society as a whole either the point at which human life begins or the point at which a fetus has autonomous rights in which the state has a compelling interest.
It still seems to me to come down to a question of whether or not a woman has primary authority over her own reproductive system prior to the birth of an offspring, or in the case of Roe v. Wade, when the fetus is viable outside the mother’s womb.
Additionally, whether or not there is an apparent threat to the mother’s health, either physical or psychological, what are the larger implications of granting to the state the power to force a woman to continue a pregnancy (or, in the case of China, to mandate its termination)?
hedera
January 19, 2006 at 1:46 am
68But Adam’s right, David - when we start arguing over definitions of when a zygote/embryo/fetus becomes a real person with real legal rights, we’ve already lost the war, whatever happens to that individual battle. The issue has to remain the woman’s right to choose what happens to her own body, not to mention her own life, and whether the Gummint has any business dictating something that personal.
It’s not as if said Gummint does anything after the baby is born to help take care of it: child care? health care? food stamps? something resembling a reasonable education (not in our public schools!)? No, once you drop that kid, you’re on your own, baby, and you have a loooong way to go.
David
January 19, 2006 at 4:20 pm
69hedera,
I absolutely agree. Roe v. Wade is a compromise in that it establishes a point at which the government can step in and decree the continuation of a pregnancy. Were it up to me, the government would have no authority prior to birth. Roe v. Wade seems to me the wisest compromise given the cultural collision with which we are faced, so long as an exception at any stage in the pregnancy for the health of the mother is preserved, as was the case in the most recent Supreme Court decision.
Ironically, a compassionate government would be far more interested in universal availability of comprehensive pre-natal care and nutrition for any and all pregnant women, and universal availability of comprehensive nutrition and healthcare for all children, regardless of social or economic status. But then I guess that makes me a wild-eyed liberal/socialist/pinko-commie humanist.
hedera
January 24, 2006 at 7:12 pm
70David,
It certainly does.
David
January 25, 2006 at 8:00 pm
71And my dad is, at heart, a Philadelphia Quaker.
Saint Mudbug preserve us (crawdads were created in Lobster’s likeness).