Jesus n’ Me

Those damn fanboys have ruint yet another perfectly good slight acquaintanceship.

Honestly.

In the meantime, don’t take Jesus’ failure to make eye contact personally, if you happen to see Him at the New Years’ bash.

Consider this: he might be really embarassed that his posse’s gotten the wrong end of the stick again. Last time it was the Inquisition, and look what happened.

Damn fanboys. They always want to run the club their way, and all the fun people don’t even want to drop by anymore.

Hmmm … I’m in a very similar boat … on xmas eve my wife goes off to celebrate with her church … and I stay home with the cat (or, as was in previous years, with my Dad … trying to figure out if we have anything in common anymore [or if we ever did]).

Although I’m not 100% sure about the bursting into flames bit. I’ve entered my wifes church … but always have this burning sensation. Could be something else, of course.

Yea, I started out real close to Jesus, my Dad worked for him and so did my mom in a way. I like what he has to say, especially the part about helping the poor and being peace makers, but now I just avoid him. I just can’t make sense of his father and Jesus is too close to his dad to reject one with out rejecting the other. So I just go my way.

As far as Jesus’ so called defenders go, I know there’s a special place in Hell for them and the hate they spread in his name.

Well, Adam, it’s obvious that you didn’t get an Xbox 360 for Hanukkah. Wow, that’s quite a story, but then you’re a professional writer. I’m going to have to re-read and mull this over for a while and I’ll get back to you guys later.

David and Adam, ditto with me and the little woman; she goes off to church and I stay home finish the paper. The kids are rather sceptical of the whole religion precept, but I haven’t been coaching them. I figured they’re smart kids - they can make up their own minds.

If many years from now a large group of people who claimed to be followers of Adam Felber said that his writings showed that George W. Bush was the greatest president the United States had ever known, and you had access to the writings of said Adam Felber, would you hold it against Adam? Even if the foolish followers decided to run a country based on the foibles of George W. Bush? I certainly hope not. But now, because you disagree with some of Jesus’s followers, you are throwing away all of Jesus’s teachings, even though you agree that His teachings are, all in all, sound.

I have enjoyed this blog and have learned a great deal from Adam and the commenters here, as well as from the links you have provided me with, but I am having a problem with the religious intolerance I feel here. I wonder what your reaction would be if you substituted the word “Muslim” or “atheist” for the word “Christian” in this section. Folks, I’m a progressive, but I wonder where my place is. I sure as hell don’t belong with the Republicans, but I’m beginning to think the Democrats don’t want me either.

I can only speak for myself Leslie, and perhaps your remarks weren’t addressing my post, so all I’ll say is this. I think it’s common to conflate such criticism into a broader commentary than it’s clearly meant to be. It’s frequently done by people (this may or may not include yourself) who want to dodge the issue at hand. I know I spoke about jesus’s followers and the mess they’ve made of it. I think I was fairly clear as well that I did not mean all christians, just a large number of them.

If you feel that criticism is unwarranted, I’ll certainly listen. Who knows, you may convince me I’m wrong but from what I’ve seen, there hasn’t been much “mortality” from that majority in some time. Need I present examples?

I’m not “Democrats”. I’m just one guy who used to be a card carrying conservative and got disgusted with the lack of honesty in that party. I can’t claim to speak for any progressive group but myself and all I can say is that if you feel that criticism of christians precludes from being a liberal, then perhaps you’re right.

I hope I am (and you are) wrong though. I think we have room for a lot of people in the big tent. They just have to mean what they say and be honest.

David of the Green Swamp here (upper case - the third david uses lower case, so there is an identifier),

First, a truly minor note: “There were a lot of Christmas specials on TV this year, and I couldn’t enjoy them as much because all the yelling made me aware that their aren’t any Hanukkah or Ramadan specials.” “…there aren’t any…” And yeah, there aren’t any, which strikes me as a missed opportunity for enrichment of our collective cultural experience (assuming such a thing is any longer permissible in what appears to be an age of ever-rigidifying demographic groups).

So now to jump in to the discussion at hand with my usual trepidation-free (and probably error-prone) compulsion to have a say.

I think Jesus was very likely regular folk with a huge dose of global humanitarianism, something anathema to damned near every interest group of his era, as well as to most of the high profile Christian leaders of today, especially those spewing the rampant homophobia which infects much of much of the “faith community” (which descriptor incorrectly suggests a monolithic entity - people who speak of the central role of religious faith in their lives are anything but monolithic, much to the chagrin of the “Learned Elders” and the legion of telehucksters).

And there is growing evidence of the rejection of homophobia among the majority of Americans (wonder if the pope will maybe jump a couple of centuries and join us in the 21st?)

Adam, I read this with great interest and considerable empathy, in part because if there is a Jesus who is able to speak to the mass of Christians who are enablers of what the likes of Pat Robertson, George Bush, and the current anti-land reform, homophobic pope, and the rest of the people who claim somehow to speak for God or God’s agent(s), then it is fair to ask Where the hell is he? I don’t see Jesus in those terms, and I doubt there is any such thing as seeing a mystical Jesus clearly, if at all. But it’s very easy to see the thrust of the current American Godsmack Up with Jesus movement, and it is a sickening, anti-humanity assault on the human flesh and the human spirit.

The fact that it was the Christian community that Karl Rove was able to exploit to such electoral success screams volumes. Can’t see where the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount figures into any of what seems to define the main thrust of current American Christianity.

Still think Ezra Pound was on to something in “The Goodly Fere,” although it seems to me the archetypal humanitarian should be, if any gender, female, or more properly non-gender, and it is his humanitarian character, and his humanitarian character alone, that recommends Jesus as a spiritual guide. And humanitarians are almost never given any significant authority in the affairs of humankind, and if they are, that authority is ultimately either demonized or co-opted.

But back to what Adam is feeling, which I think is the profound disconnect between humanitarianism and current dominant American religious forces, and for that matter dominant religious forces worldwide, which is something to be rejected in any way possible by everyone of every (or no) religious persuasion.

Shantih

I think it’s time to remind everyone again that 90% of the headlines are made by 10% of the idiots. The followers of Pat Roberts, the screaming homophobes, the right-wing talk show people, the people who think “God helps those who help themselves” is an actual quote from the Bible (sorry: it was Benj. Franklin…) and therefore justifies the opinion that the poor deserve their fate… These people make the national headlines. These are the people from whom one may get the impression that the actual teachings of Jesus are being ignored in favor of what this generation of Puritan bigots considers “moral”. I know I often get that feeling - and from my own cousin, I regret to say; he likes to forward me “internet letters” that he agrees with. They turn my stomach. I delete them.

Making only local headlines is the poor church in East Oakland that decided to support one family of Katrina refugees for one year, and went out and got housing, clothing, appliances, toys for the kids, etc. for this family (including a job for mom). Now that’s Christianity. And if you apply the 90%/10% rule, there may be more of that going on, quietly in the background as Christ taught, than we realize. Just because it isn’t in the national headlines doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

Full disclosure here: I personally am not a Christian, not because I object to Christ’s teachings (actually I try to live by Christ’s teachings) but because, as Murray said, I have trouble with his dad. (And don’t get me started on Saul of Tarsus…) What bothers me about the 10% making the headlines is their insistence that the only worthy people are the ones who think like them. I prefer the company of people who are willing to admit they may be wrong.

As for substituting the word “Muslim” for “Christian”, Leslie: I object to the Muslim fanatics out there as I much as I do to the Christian fanatics. I object to being told that I must shut up, obey the men, cover my face and hair, etc. I don’t want to live in the 12th century.

And David, don’t hold your breath waiting for this pope to enter the 21st century: he’s heading straight back to the 17th.

I was born and raised Greek Orthodox, and I have bounced back and forth between that and the Episcopal Church most of my adult life. I, too, became so disappointed with the relative silence of the Christian wing of the Church, just about 5 years ago now, that I finally dropped out altogether.

Intellectually I know that I’m not helping, that it would be better if I were to stay in and not help to reduce the number of Americans who say they belong to a “mainstream” (as opposed to an independent evangelical) church. But I don’t have the will to do that without getting something out of it for myself, and I wasn’t getting any spiritual nourishment for myself out of that exercise.

I am somewhat heartened to hear interviews with Jimmy Carter, and read reviews of, his new book, “Our Endangered Values”. Someone with some clout has finally blown the whistle on the bullies, money changers, and hypocrites who have hijacked the Church.

hedera,

Think he’ll be willing to stop at the 17th, or will the rumblings of enlightenment thinking send him wandering on back in his misbegotten vision quest for myopic authoritarian orthodoxy?

‘Course I guess as long as it’s a liberation theology free world, he’ll be happy wearing his outfits and playing his part. Intriguing the similarities between his and Pat Robertson’s views of the people of and acceptable economic systems for Central and South America.

Hey Cretins,

Life is good at the top! The air is fresher; the colors brighter! And every day is a profitable ($$$) adventure. Still skimming and hiding off-shore.

ginny, you and madbard are bitching and moaning about fanboys fucking up all things good and virtuous about religion. HAH!!! What about fangirls, huh? Anita Bryant, now there was a dame! Great big hair, white teeth and always with the Florida tan. And talk about gams! I have, however, always been suspicous and curious about the breasts - but she says she has a “don’t ask, don’t touch” policy concerning that information. And she enforces this policy most vigorously, at least around me - the prude. I could still see handprint on the side of my face for days. Still, “A breakfast without Orange Juice is like a day without sunshine” can still melt me. And “Come to the Florida Sunshine Tree…” What a babe! That business about a fag-free Miami pretty much did her in, though. The last I heard she and hubby #2 were in bankruptcy. Good place for them to be, if you ask me.

Rep. Thomas Delay, (R, TX)

Leslie, not to be critical, but good things can be done in the name of Kilgore Trout, too.

Cooper, not to be critical, but are they?

Does it matter whose name a good deed is done in, so long as its done freely and without expectation of reward?

I’m not sure that anyone with even a modicum of intellectual integrity would imply that religion, any religion, is completely evil and has never accomplished any good.

That said, and I’m not accusing you of this Leslie, but as I mentioned above, it’s often defenses like that are the ones used to cover for people like Fred Phelps.

For instance, Pat Robertson. He’s a fairly wacky guy (to put it mildly). His “commercial endeavors” are suspect (again, to put it mildly) as are much of his “teachings” but surely, even Pat does some nice things, so how “fair” should I be with him? Is it unreasonable for me to expect normal, rational christians to denounce him?

I truly wish all christians, all people of faith, were as seemingly live and let live as you appear to be Leslie buit my experience tells me otherwise. My experience tells me that there are actually fairly large swaths of intolerant, outright bigoted people hanging behind jesus’s robes to take away the civil rights of fellow citizens.

So you make a good pont Leslie. It doesn’t behove me, or anyone else, to lump all people of faith in one category. However, that same sword cuts in both directions. The good works or words of a few, don’t cover the many either. People stand on their own merits, sometimes good, sometimes not so good.

Ever notice how politicians talk about “Heartland values” or “Southern values” or “Oregon values,” but they’re always the same values? Wherever they happen to be speaking, they attribute special “values” to that place. It’s the same with religion. Is “Christian” charity really that different from Muslim or Buddhist charity?
Every time someone mentions the ghastly cruelty and injustice inflicted in the name of God or Jesus, someone brings up the good works of Christians. Perhaps that’s really just a comment on the universality of both cruelty and charity.
As an atheist, I have a very strong motivation to practice charity and kindness toward others: I believe that this is the only life we have. There is no “divine” justice, so the need to work for justice here on earth is that much greater. There is no afterlife in which all of our hurts will be salved and all wrongs righted, so THIS is the only time we have to make each other’s lives more bearable. And although Jesus did promise a heavenly reward, he didn’t give people a free pass to make others miserable in this life–he blessed the peacemakers, and the meek, and the merciful!

Happy holidays!

Cooper, good works are good works. May Kilgore smile on you!

Ice Weasel, Pat Robertson is a fruitcake. He’s off his nut about half a mile, and I’m appalled that he calls himself a Christian. I can’t judge him rationally because I’m too angry about his actions, so I won’t even address your other comments about him. When I spoke about the good being done by Christians, I was speaking about the group as a whole. I realize you have the right to become specific, but Pat Robertson, really!

Ann, you may be an atheist, but you preached a sermon, and a pretty good one at that.

I love reading everyone’s comments too here…so best.

…(whispering from the back pew)…I enjoyed reading every word you wrote Adam. Christian or Athiest, Polytheist or Buddhist, there’s just so much I personally can take from a “marketed” Jesus. I tried to embrace the concept of “NOTW”, but I love this world so much and so many have been taken away from me in this world I have a hard time dealing with something that’s Not Of This World. If you can’t be part of this world, why am I even alive then? I just can’t stomach the acronimic WWJD and NOTW’s any longer.

I had the distinct PRIVILEGE of celebrating both Jewish and Christian holidays for about six years while my dad was married to his Jewish 2nd wife; my step-mother. My step-family seemed to me during this time period much more loving, tolerant, and just overall okay with who they were than my subsequent trying to be like other people who are born-again and have lots of money and are so happy singing about Jesus and redemption.

I was baptized Episcopalian in 1987, after thinking (delusionally so) that taking this straight and narrow path would really make my life more meaningful. Instead, I felt like one must feel when they were born, say, male, and know all along that they were meant to be a different sexual orientation, say female. Like, the choice had been made but I wasn’t comfortable. Ever.

I digress here on your blog. What I am trying to say is this: This year felt more like ChristMESS to me than ChristMAS. Something’s changed; something’s shifted. I even felt uncomfortable having to sit through what felt to me a propaganda-laden “Chronicles of Narnia”. The book and its symbolism via C.S. Lewis was magical and ethereal. The Liam Neeson’d Aslan made me feel nauseous. I couldn’t wait until it was over and I could leave the theatre. Was I feeling like the White Witch? Was I “bad” like Edmond? Was I being “convicted” of sin through the movie? I don’t know! I do know that I liked Mr. Tumnus though…he was cool because he was the only character in that movie that actually was struggling with thought vs. deed.

I’m just so over it all and it’s hard to feel that way when you’ve got children that are trying to make sense of what’s going on in their life, their country, their world at the same time you are.

Hey RRRyan,

Let me get this straight.

Lying about a blow job is unacceptable but lying to go to war and sacrificing several thousand Americans and at least 100,000 Iraqis is just fine? An admirable choice?
You think that CNN is the polar opposite of FOX? As far as I can see it is only slightly to the right of center. You want the polar opposite, try Pacifica Radio.
You quote Jesus as saying “not one word of the law will go away” But when was the last time you heard a conservative quoting Jesus saying. “It is harder for a Camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. If you wish to enter heaven, sell all you have, give it to the poor, and follow me. You have turned my father’s house into a den of thieves. (I could go on for a long time here, 1/3 of what Jesus says in the Bible has to do with helping the poor, but I’m guessing you don’t want to hear it because Jesus didn’t really mean it, right?).
You know, what ever Pat Robertson says, whether it is meant for the general public, Christians, for his followers, or just for the other handful of insane people like him, it is a little hard to defend calling for an assassination, and calling God’s wrath on NY, New Orleans, and even Dover PA. So you are saying that with out God you would be equally crazy? Does that mean that Pat is with out God, or that only your faith keeps you from being equally insane? And how does that explain so many VERY moral people who don’t believe in God? CS Lewis bounced back and forth from Christian to Atheist to Christian, can you tell from his works when he was what? He still liked to spank girls when he was a Christian.
And with out Christianity the choice is “do what ever you want, when ever you want”? My experience is that many Christians do “what ever they want, when ever they want”, and use their Christianity to JUSTIFY it. Secular Humanists can’t fall back on a book filled with contradictions to cover their every whim and must use their own judgment to decide what is right. My guess is that you will find the overwhelming numbers of people in jail are Christians and not Secular Humanists

RRRyan, we still welcome your input.

Cooper, thanks for reading my post.

Not all Americans believe that our president lied about WMDs (which I assume you are referring to). So without believing your premise the rest doesn’t come up.

If I believed that I would be disappointed in his actions. I’ll take it a step further though. I honestly believe there were and ARE WMDs. They made it to Syria early in the conflict or are buried. A man like Hussein does not go from having them to not having them. Period.

I’ll admit that based on the limited facts we peons of the planet have access to it is possible that our President managed to organize a great conspiracy to get all of the intelligence to point to WMDs. Just like the above, my gut says too unlikely. Just like I don’t think he’ll cheat on his wife I also don’t think he’ll lie to us.

As far as the reasons we went to war, I know a lot of Christians who are opposed to it. I’m admittedly a bit mean. A person like S.H. who mows down Kurds by the thousands for trying to leave “his” country, who buries people’s children by the hundreds for living in the same city that an assassin came from, and the list goes on… Must die ASAP. I’ve had a wonderful life so far and would consider it an honor to trade what’s left of it to help others be freed from such fear and oppression. If my forefathers had not thought that way I would be shipping half of everything I earn to England for the king to build his next palace. So my OPINION is based on “with great privilege comes great responsibility”. The Iraqis are my neighbors, and perhaps someday friends, even brothers. The bar is set high for America and I am amazed that we still make the leap.

Again, thank you so much for reading my post. I see other comments have popped in while I was composing this. Neat!

Murray,

I hope I don’t wear out my welcome by trying to touch on everything. All of your points have merit. I already mentioned that I don’t believe Bush lied to anyone, so that comparison is unfair.

1. On the poor I assume you mean that conservatives don’t care about them? That is not true. I care.

2. Den of thieves? Yes, perhaps some religious leaders have done just that. Surely not all though. Jesus warned that they will be dealt with especially severely.

3. Jesus meant everything he said.

4. I apparently don’t know as much about C.S. Lewis as you.

5. On the Robertson issue you were all over the map, maybe he’s a big target. I’m not personally vouching for every word that comes out of his mouth. When he talks about things like assassinations and judgment I take it with care. Christians can be skeptical too. I had an accident on my motorcycle the other day and am still aching from it. Is that God’s judgment on me? I’m persuaded that it was a combination of wrong place, and wrong time. Does God control the weather? Yes. Does God judge people using natural disasters? Yes. Does that mean that he hates New Orleans? The only thing I can say is I’m pretty sure He’s not into Mardi Gras. I wouldn’t go as far as he did. I wrote a check to the Salvation Army and faced the fact that I didn’t have enough vacation time to make the trip to help.:-\

After that response I felt like I was on the business end of a Tommy gun.

RRRRyan,

Four hurricanes in a row hit Florida, all immediately after the 2004 election. What do you think God was trying to say there?

Adam,

With all due respect, when Shrub “testified” before the 9/11 Commission, he refused to do it under oath, and he refused to do it without his puppetmaster by his side, and he refused to let the session be recorded for posterity. Hence he avoided the possibility of being caught in an *offical* lie….for the time being. But this is the man who was going to bring honor and integrity back to the White House. Why wouldn’t he testify under oath?

More recently, he has announced that he, by virtue of being a “war president,” is above the law. This in itself is an impeachable offense against the Constitution which he has sworn, under oath, to uphold.

If you were listening to Patrick Fitzgerald a couple of months ago, and I know you were, then you understand why obstruction of justice is just as serious a crime as the underlying crime that is being covered up. I think you’re being too easy on poor ole Georgie, but I also think that justice will be served. It may take a while longer, but we will determine once again that we are a nation of laws, not of men, just as we did in the Nixon regime.

Hi Sharon! Thanks for responding.

1. I can’t verify or deny that the U.S. has stopped looking for the WMDs. If they went to Syria what would you say if we did go looking for them? You wouldn’t like that one bit I suspect.

2. My bet is the war in Iraq will really be over when Hussein hangs but that’s not very P.C. is it? I also think it’s likely that they won’t make democracy fly, but they’ll get a good chance to try. Genesis 16 (I think or maybe 19) talks about Ishmael and says something like his offspring will live in conflict with his brothers. As far as no verified connects do you know what Zarqawi’s title is? How about “Head of al-Qaeda in Iraq”??? Do you know who his predecessor was? I’m quite certain it was also the President/Dictator/King of Iraq. You may disagree, but if you believed this stuff as I do then my other opinions certainly make sense do they not?

3. As far as OBL, he is likely dead. If he’s not dead, he’s certainly no longer very involved. What makes you think we aren’t looking for him? Best guess is he’s in Pakistan. Would you like that we continue our search there? I suspect not. Especially with them pointing their nukes at India. Yes, they do have WMDs, at least they say they do.

Gosh I love this place.

Adam, I really do like your story about Jesus N’ Me. I guess there is something about religion or just the mention of Jesus that brings out a visceral reaction in the average human, whether you’re for religion or again’ it.

Thanks for this blog. Growing up in smallville like I did, I didn’t meet a Jew until I was in college, honest. There I met alot of them and actually dated one for a year (I was her goyfriend). I went to Synagog a few times - no flames, no lightning bolts. Her friends and family were very kind to me and hoped to Jesus that she would marry a nice Jewish boy - not me - which is what happened, as it turns out.

“The real issue is that he is our President, and he took us to war largely for reasons that turned out not to be true. If nothing else, that represents colossally poor judgement. But worse - the Iraq war was not well planned. Despite the administration’s assurances, it is not going well, and it’s my suspicion that we’re going to declare victory and leave in order to save face, and then the place is going to fall apart.”

A real issue here, rather than the real issue here…. But in addition to making quite good sense, you are likely dead on in your conclusion. I would add, however, that Cheney and Rumsfeld will not be without an utterly ruthless, totally “American interests” as they define American interests plan for what they consider victory, and it has nothing to do with the wellbeing of Iraqis. We lost the war Bush said we were fighting on the first day in Baghdad when we did not secure the Iraqi Museum, choosing only to protect the oil ministry. That move was emblematic of who we as invaders really were and why we were there. Soldiers just did what they were told to, individually noble in most instances but agents of what was in reality an utterly ignoble breach of the peace.

The Kurds are fully prepared to go to war for Kirkuk, the Shi’a in the south are likely ready to do the same for the southern oil fields, and while god only knows what’s in Bush’s mind, if anything, what’s in the minds of the policy makers is what it has always been. Violence, destruction, human agony and massive death are acceptable, so long as some geopolitical point is arrived at that ensures cheap access to and predictable control of vital resources. And it matters very little how totally taxpayers and men and women who mostly really do want to serve their country get screwed, so long as major corporate interests, in this case energy interests, win, at least as they define winning in their boardrooms.

I have to say I think Bush believes what he says, which is really pathetic. Cheney is indifferent to whether what he says is the truth or a lie. Rumsfeld lives in his own elitist universe, enamored of his own cleverness, and dismissive of any judgments contrary to his own.
And American taxpayers and Iraqis in general are well and truly fucked, except those who emerge as the privileged in whatever emerges from this crime against humanity (all wars of aggression, regardless of the rationale, are crimes against humanity).

I think the “Iraqis in general” just voted for a parliament and are still uncovering mass graves.
But, you strayed from the question. If Bush lied, didn’t almost every prominent Dem.? If it was a lie, wasn’t it a massive, two decade, both party, all of government lie that required thousands of officials, agents, etc…to carry out.

Sharon,

I’m sure if we knew him to be dead it would be announced and promptly, not waiting for the next election. It would be dishonest to hold such information for that purpose & remember, I think our president is honest. BTW, do you really believe the NYT story on the wiretapping was promptly released or strategically?

I’m sorry I missed the news that we aren’t looking for OBL. I find it hard to believe that someone isn’t looking for him. What’s the bounty up to now, 20 million or something?

When the President says he “doesn’t think about him” I’d assume he means that he is no longer a threat, not that he wants to send him on an all expense paid trip to Las Vegas.

Is there anything our President could do that would make you happy? Leave Iraq? Stay in Iraq? Announce that he awakes in the middle of the night screaming because of the face of OBL? Wiretapping terrorist communications? Not securing our ports enough? Too proactive, not proactive enough.

People who really hate our President say things like:

“If the people of the 9th ward were mostly white their homes wouldn’t have been destroyed.”

Huh?

“Iraqis never asked us to come there.”

Uh, yes they did. In fact they counted on us once and we let them down causing many to be killed.

Anyway, I really like to avoid ranting. Some of that may qualify. :-\

One thing that our president could do that would make me happy is to take the lead on getting us away from an oil-based economy. Get serious about developing alternative fuels, because the oil IS going to run out sooner or later. He could take the lead in dealing with the associated pollution and climate change. When you see General Electric making the leap to cleaner, more efficient technologies you know the market is there. Use tax policies to help companies change course and produce the products the world will want, rather than rewarding the fuel fossils for dragging their feet. It would be good for the country in so many ways; how could it not make me happy?

Also, the president could just give it a rest on the religion stuff for a few months. (We already know where he stands; there’s no need to reassure us - really.) It doesn’t seem to work in our favor when we’re up against religious fanatics. Sure, there’s a difference in degree. But it’s damn hard to argue that they shouldn’t try to institute shariah (sp?) law, when our leader is constantly trying to put his God into every element of American law.

Jesus loves us and you’re trying, is that it, waterfowler?

Leslie,
I said I was sorry if I left anyone out. Jesus loves you and I’m still tryin’.

Might be worth remembering that Hans Blix was in the process of establishing that Hussein had no WMDs, as Scott Ritter was also arguing quite compellingly, and that Bush rushed to war rather than wait until some kind of objective conclusion regarding WMDs could be reached. And there was certainly nothing Saddam could do while the inspectors were in Iraq.

Leaders are accountable for the decisions they make, and for the consequences of those decisions (regardless of intentions - competence trumps “character”), which consequences all affected persons are condemned to suffer collectively.

I think Adam is right - the question of whether or not Bush lied is a distraction from the plain story of the administration’s behavior before and during the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and for those decisions and actions this administration should be condemned. On the other hand, maybe it does matter that if it can be established that Bush lied, the majority of Americans would support impeachment, a cleansing of the White House Augean Stables that might be the best thing for the wellbeing of the republic since Nixon had to climb aboard Marine One that final time (what a day of rejoicing that did be).

An aside: “What’s love got to do with it?”
-Tina Turner

For a history of how the humanitarian teachings of the prophet Jesus morphed into the rule-bound, spirit-suffocating, exclusionary cult espoused by too many of our most vocal political and religious “leaders”, I would commend to your reading pleasure the book “Constantine’s Sword”, by James Carroll, published a few years ago. The beginning of the end came when Christianity went from being a religion, to being The State-Mandated Religion, back in the 4th century. There are, as you can imagine, many lessons along the way about the dangers of permitting a government-religious coalition to flourish.

Chari,

I reacted the same way you did to Adam’s post. I thought it was a particularly effective reminder of how the public face of contemporary American Christianity is estranging at least some (I have no idea how many, not even a ballpark guess - or hot dog) thoughtful, intelligent, basically congenial folk - and really pissing off some others - but it is probably the former who matter more for purposes of this discussion.

As an apatheist, I really don’t have a dog in this hunt, other than how the radical religious right is advocating public policies that could have an effect on my personal freedoms.

But on the subject of Jesus — for a long time I’ve thought that deifying him blunted the impact of his message. If Jesus was divine, then he knew the Plan and the abuse and suffering he endured would end in the ultimate vidication of the Resurrection. But he wasn’t, and he didn’t.

When I read the gospels I don’t get the idea that Jesus thought he was divine at all. When he referred to himself as the “Son of God,” I always thought he was saying “And so are you…and you are the daughter of God” All of us carry the spark of divinity within us. So his message is all the more powerful because he was human — just like us — yet he was able to transcend the darker nature of humanity and say “Love one another. Forgive your enemies.” If he, as a purely human being could do that, then the rest of us are challenged to do the same.

Jesus was a martyr for a cause. There have been others in history who have suffered and died because they called upon us to listen to the better angels of our nature.

It’s a powerful message and it is the shame of our species that we have corrupted it.