Pope on the Ropes

Never mess with a 123-year-old pontiff whose books are Holy Ghost-written.

Great post, AF… it just needed a “Flawless Victory!” and “Fatality!” at the end. Or not.

Oh, it’s on. I’m calling you homos out (expect for the priests we covered up for years abusing kids). I’m calling you abortionists out - yeah - you’re just like the Nazis, never mind that we helped Nazis get out of Europe after the war and sent many Jews to their deaths, I SAID I WAS SORRY BEE-ATCH.

Surprised he didn’t take down the women who want to be priests with the same vehemence. My favorite part of that link was the poll on the side about whether or not people think the pope should retire. Retire? This is a pope who thinks he can excommunicate from the grave; nobody with that hubris would EVER retire.

Am I going straight to hell if I am fairly ambivalent (though leaning towards the positive) on wanting the Pope to kick the bucket?

Well, I don’t know.

This book was obviously not written by this Pope. The style and language just doesn’t mesh with his earlier writings.

I don’t agree with him on much, but I do find much to appreciate in this pope. First of all, I think he is a deeply spiritual man, probably one of the most spiritual to ever hold the office. I also think he is a poet, with a great respect for language (another reason this new book falls flat) And at least he is consistert when he speaks of respecting life - against abortion, against capital punishment, against war. He’s also managed to take on the excesses of capitalism.

I’m sure there’s more than one cabal in the Vatican that would profit politcally from the publication of this book. There are backroom deals at papal enclaves that would make the late Mayor Daley blush. But it makes no sense that a pope who has spent a great deal of his papacy engaged in efforts to reach out to other faiths and to repair relationships would suddenly turn this petty and vicious. It just doesn’t sound like him.

And this from an apatheist……

Dee,

Yes the pope did make a great deal of effort to reach out to other faiths, but he learned his lesson.

A bit over 20 years ago the pope invited 20 or so leaders of the major religions to meet with him in Assisi. The Dali Lama, the head of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and all of the major religious leaders were gathered there to pray for the world.

Somehow, one of the churches that were asked to participate was the Christian Reformed Church, (a Dutch version of Presbyterian). This church has no actual leader. It has a Synod that meets every couple of years to hammer out doctrine, but no one is in charge. When asked, the church looked around and decided that the one person who could best represent itself was a theologian who worked for an organization that brought similar faiths together. He was already booked at the time, so he sent his wife.

I t is hard to imagine that anyone could be LESS suited to meet with the religious leaders of the world than my mom. Not that she isn’t very smart or well educated, but I’m sure that God told her that it was her duty to convert all of those sinners to the only true religion.

Best I can tell, she failed.

I still have a copy of the Time Magazine with her picture and all of those other unconverted heathens.

The pope had no idea what he was getting himself into. How could he? He never met mom until it was too late.

DEE: This book was obviously not written by this Pope. The style and language just doesn’t mesh with his earlier writings.

You know… I think you’re right, the guy can barely talk or move, how’s he gonna write or even dictate a book?

It may soon be a book written from the grave. This morning, JP was rushed to hospital with a “relapse” of the “flue”

Now, where does a guy, who seems to be fairly isolated, catch “the flu” in the first place?

Maybe “going to the office” when you’re sick really is a Cardinal Sin!

Oops!

Alternative Radio, and it’s Lester Brown on water reserves, global warming, and the rest
of the real global equation.

If you think he can barely talk now, just wait until he gets his trach. Oooooohhhhh, I’ll burn in hell for that one. Wait, I forgot…I’m an atheist.

Just in case there is, um, you know…a god, and just in case he/she/it IS a lobster, maybe they should elect King Neptune as the next pope.

You know, you can leave the catholic church but the catholic guilt will never leave you. I saw the Pope was getting a trach today and was flooded immediately with the dreaded CIG (catholic, irish, GUILT).

On a lighter note, Murray, how fabulous is your mother? Love that.

If you people would study your “Book of Revelations” you would be praying for Pope John Paul II’s life. According to some “experts” he is the second to last pope. The guy that follows will bring about the apocolypse.

So, now everyone let us hope that this isn’t some sort of Breznev type flu. (Former Premiere of the Soviet Union.) Otherwise, the apocolypse has already begun. The rapture should happen to me any second…

Monty,

Good Lobster! Do you mean that we will see the day when Lobster’s Chosen Son (not that first one, the current one) ascend into heaven carrying a righteous sword of indignation and having sex with angels who miraculously look like Condoleeza Rice? Is there going to be a new breed of Nephalim out recreate the world in the visage of the Cheney? Or am I getting my apocalyptic prophesies mixed up?

I have to disagree. When the spiritual leader of a major religious institution lashes out like somebody did in the Pontiff’s name, the people who have been villified and condemned to the fires of hell have no reason, moral or otherwise, to take it submissively. Wicked diatribes deserve wickedly satiric responses. When he dies, I will grant him the same moment of regard I would grant any fallible mortal, but he put a hole in my ability to respect him, or his handlers, that I doubt can be mended. I do not respect the sincerity of deeply held beliefs that are destructive of the human spirit, nor do I respect those who hold such powerful positions that they can magnify the destructive impact of those misguided beliefs.

Adam’s satiric piece is funny as hell, and if that’s where I’m bound for being glad he wrote it and I got to read it, c’est la vie.

The problem with being the pope is that you can’t retire from the position. There has never been a pope who voluntarily handed off the position, as far as I know. (I’m not a Catholic but I did minor in European history… anybody know differently?)

Without having read the book (polemics make me itch), the arguments about stylistic differences make sense to me - you write the way you write, and if this is different from all his earlier writings, maybe it isn’t really his.

On the other hand, I’ve been following his pronouncements, not in extreme detail, but generally, for some years; and it seems to me he’s always had that deeply conservative, hardline authoritarian streak. This may be a deeply spiritual man, but he isn’t and never was a “liberal” pope. He’s been butting heads with the American bishops for years. Still, he’s a sick old man, with advanced Parkinson’s disease, and it seems likely that we’ll soon be able to tell whether PC (Cardinal) Pete is right about “Smokin” Joe Cardinal Ratzinger…

“It’s the end of the world as we know it… yea it’s the end of the world as we know it… it’s the end of the world as we know and I feel fine!”

I haven’t read Revelations (or any part of the Bible for that matter), but what in it makes…Monty Zoom think that this Pope is the second to last one??? Could I have a quote please?

All I know is I am meek and I shall inherit the Earth! Yea!!!! Go me! Go me! It’s my b-day! Time to party! Yay!

FWIW: I’m pretty sure Adam posted this before JPII went into the hospital this last time. I looked at the headline of this and thought “I wonder if he’ll regret that posting in the morning…”

wow! So many comments, so fast!

“I haven’t read the book, but…” I’m sure whoever wrote it reflects the views of the Pope. I mean, I’m sure, the Church would never do anything “sneaky!”

I don’t think the Pope can “retire.” Once annointed as Christ’s Vicar, you’re stuck with it for ‘life.’ That is why so many Popes have died “mysteriously.”

I have read Revelations several times.I have also sat with friends on bad acid trips. ‘Nuff said.

Didn’t anyone else see the string lifting the Pope’s arm in his Pope-mobile on his last journey “home?”

And, no, it is not in bad taste (well, really tacky, but then so is the whole history of the Church) to be amused by the contemptible actions of an institution that has for a couple thousand years screwed over a significant portion of the world, pretending to be the “Voice of G*d.” Thank G*d we now have the Yellow Rose who is really moved by G*d’s will (and can see into men’s souls,) to direct the affairs of the world.

Murray - you never cease to amaze and amuse me!

The list of abdicating popes is nice, but 2 problems.
1: The last time a pope abdicated, it was because he was a hermit and couldn’t take being pope. He lasted maybe a couple months.
2: The problem is not whether or not the pope will abdicate but that the church makes no provision for those who WON’T (see previous comment about hubris) and become senile or even go into a coma.

Also, this is an aside, but I feel sorry for revelations. All it really was originally was a piece of resistance literature against the Romans. Now it’s just known as one of the freakier books of the bible.

ECS is right - I posted this several hours before the Pope’s latest collapse. Yeah, I thought about removing it to avoid offending people (like that Charlie Pierce fan), but the Pope’s BOOK isn’t dying, and it’s the book that I have issues with.

Still, trying to incite a rivalry between me and Pierce is just plain wrong. We’ve only just reconciled after the whole potato salad incident.

“Charlie Pierce?” Why are we even TALKING about that infuriating man? I happen to have it on good authority that the man’s grandmother does in fact favor footwear most appropriate for military maneuvers in damp weather!

Why, I wouldn’t care, not a jot, were he to insult me, for it is beyond doubt that I am a resilient, rubbery substance, whereas he is, metaphorically, more of a gummy, sticky surface, thus producing the effect that any ill-favored remarks that he might make would (again, in an imagistic way) simply bounce of off me and thereupon cling to him!

[See? this is was happens when we NPR types start with the “smack talk.”]

Murray - as I’ve said before, my I got my bride mail-order from the ‘Burgh, and we get back there occassionaly, so who knows. I don’t drink, but I can think as well now on a few big mugs of root beer as I used to on a couple of Heinous Green Leopard Frogs (recipe on request). This may be the same sort of residual effect we see in the Yellow Rose.

John -

I don’t disagree with you about any of this, really. And honestly, when I wrote this, I expected the Pope to be out of the news, health-wise, for quite a while. I do not advocate his resignation, because it IS a potentially volatile act.

BUT - some of the statements from this present book are alarmingly radical, and they will serve to widen the schism between “faithful” and “progressive” Catholics across the globe. Worse, if he should die soon, that would only intensify the rift - dying words carry so much more weight, after all. In my view, this is a terrible time for another major religion to return to its fundamental roots. We need another Enlightenment, and we need it NOW.

It is exactly BECAUSE the Pope is a living saint that we can’t afford to make excuses for him based on his current health. There’s far too much hanging on his every word and deed to overlook his writings or excuse them as the ruminations of a sick old man. This stuff’s important, and the quality of the thought shouldn’t be secondary to the health of its vessel.

In other words - I understand the Church, and I’m not just taking a pot-shot at a sick man.

Still, pot-shots are my stock and trade…

Thank you, Adam, for keeping the Fanatical Apathy faith, being here all along. Still seeing it and saying it. Amazing how much this forum means, how much it means that you keep trying. You help me keep my mind flexible and my heart willing. Like thousands of others, I count on you and read even when I don’t post.

Nuff mush.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Adam.
O.K., now nuff.

I really don’t think there’s any chance of a “schizm” in the church if JPII resigned. Who would demand to follow a Pope who specifically asked that they not follow him anymore? It sounds like something from “Life of Brian.”

If JPII were forced out and was actively trying to get his power back, or if the Cardinals disagreed as to who should replace him, then there would be a chance of a split. Perhaps half of ‘em would pack up and move back to Avignon.

Anyway, I think nothing is absolutely immune from satirization. Some writers are just braver than others. Anyone heard any good tsunami jokes recently?

If Satire’s not sacred, what is?

Mike Z. - The risk of a schism comes from a distinct possiblity that whomever succeeds JP II is likely to be somewhat more modern than he was, perhaps even progressive (we can hope). Judging from the reaction that his (or whomever’s) new book has engendered, JP II’s hard-core traditionalism has been a cause of division within the church, and is certainly not well received by those outside of it (understatement alert). The very conservative and traditional in the church will have difficulty accepting JP II’s successor, which would be compounded if he were to step aside, rather than pass away.

Murray - No offense taken, and in fact I agree with most of what you said. My initial emotional reaction, although wrongly placed on Adam (my apologies) really belongs to those who made comments such as Lenin’s emabalmers, arm on a string, etc. Still not funny, and I happen to have a great sense of humor.

I distinctly agree with your characterization of “life is life”. In fact, this is a central tenant of the church, hence opposition to abortion, the death penalty, embryonic stem cells, etc. It is all based upon an unwaivering respect for life. I’m not so sure that I would equate human life with an ant. But I can respect those that do.

I welcome a healthy debate on the social and political aspects of the new book (regardless of authorship). Taken in that light, Adam’s piece is interesting, even humorous. I fully understand the offense the book has caused to many. Comparing anything to the holocaust is really not acceptable, and was a poor choice. There are many other better ways of speaking out in opposition to abortion.

Regardless of one’s religion, or lack thereof, I hope that we can all accept that the pope is a man trying to do a very difficult job, in very trying times. He does what he does out of a sincere belief that it is the right thing to do. His deteriorating health is painful for all of us to watch. Whether or not one believes that he is holy, for these reasons I believe he deserves some respect.

Again, I let my hot head color my original post. I have no problem with Adam’s piece or a discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of the new book. I would be more than willing to discuss, at great length, the problems with the Catholic church, of which there are many. But please, show a little respect for a dying old man.

John D.

Given the growth of conservative factions of the church — esp in Africa — I find it rather more plausible that the next pope will be even more conservative, and friendly with fundamentalist types, leading to further migration of liberal Catholics to moderate protestant churches. The Episcopal church grew greatly, and became much more moderate, through an influx of ex-Catholics, following the replacement of JP1, who was expected to be a reformer and had even made noises about changing the Catholic stance on birth control, with the more traditionalist JP2.

I hope it leaves your heart with an exhilarating feeling when you talk as if you know something about the pope or when you say all kind of stupid contempting words about him!

Back before stethoscopes and thermometers, dead people might not be dead, just in a coma. The Pope, and others, were hit in the head and their name, including their childhood nickname, was called out loud three times to see if they could make him stir.

They stopped the practice with advances in medicine in the 15th or 16th century.

He was a brave man who worked hard all his life to be holy.

Well some of you have no accountability. John Paul II was a great man no matter what your religion anybody who says different has vile agendas.